Curse

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 11:40 AM // 11:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

I see your build no better than the casual HB bar

Granted it's a fine hybrid, thank god PS is in there. But hexes and conditions in PvE aren't worth removing, they're reapplied nearly instantly, daze doesn't occur enuff to bring a remover over. And any blind is either spam or can be interrupted easily.

So why is your monk bar still not imba after this thread?

Which is why I said, it depends on what you're about to face. But we can ignore that right? Cause then it would invalidate your post...

Furthermore, prot spirit, guardian, SoA and etc are no better than a casual HB bar? Are you out of your mind or just trolling?

edit: I am guessing you just don't know what you're talking about. The point of picking and choosing your skills is to attempt to maximize amount of damage you nullify by healing or prevent by protection per amount of mana you spend. To sit there and claim that my example hybrid bar is nothing special in comparison to a shitty HB bar, when prot is shown to be consistently better than red bar up is disingenuous at best. Plus, making up scenarios to show how ineffective my example hybrid bar is in the face of conditions and hexes that are always reapplied instantly (really? monsters have recharges too) does not say anything except that you know how to set up that straw man and really beat it into the ground. Congrats.

Crash Override · Jul 20, 2009, 11:53 AM // 11:53

I didn't mean to come off saying that PvX has bad builds. It's the lack of player skill. People can't Monk well (it's probably the hardest profession to play imo) and they don't want to be bothered with taking the time to learn about simple things like pre-protting and e-management so they think PvX'ing their builds will work.

I admit, until I was able to learn the classes well, I did it for my heroes when I first got the game.

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 11:59 AM // 11:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

Yes there is a point in removing those skills, but it is only worth bringing hex/condition removal if those spells are there and the people affected make it known that they have them early on.

90% of areas don't have hexes or conditions worth removing and 90% of people don't bother calling these things, they just wait for them to run down.

In most cases there are better things to take on a monk bar imo.

Yes HB is a good skill, but there are better ones.

I wholly disagree with you when you say "The real problem is bad monks PvX'ing their builds." Pvxwiki is full of good builds, there are very few "bad" builds on there. The real problem is just bad monks, it doesn't matter where they get their builds from. I would rather a bad monk pvx'ed their build than made their own (which will most probably be crap), at least then it gives them a head start in that they have a build that works, they just need to learn to use it well.

HB/GoLE/HP sucks. Is it from PvX? Because it should be removed. It's not a build you can become 'better' at. It's a shortsighted build with little to no real monking power.

edit:

My god, it is on pvx
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/E...7s_Boon_Healer
A lot of player manage to make it WORSE than it already is, no small feat. The WoH hybrid is there too, with the same rating, but people don't use it. Why? Why why why why?

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 12:17 PM // 12:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

HB/GoLE/HP sucks. Is it from PvX? Because it should be removed. It's not a build you can become 'better' at. It's a shortsighted build with little to no real monking power.

edit:

My god, it is on pvx
http://pvx.wikia.com/wiki/Build:Mo/E...7s_Boon_Healer
A lot of player manage to make it WORSE than it already is, no small feat. The WoH hybrid is there too, with the same rating, but people don't use it. Why? Why why why why?

i agree, but going back to my original post, i would rather a newb monk went onto pvx and got that build than made their own god-awful hbreeze build.

i should rephrase my original post "there are very few monk builds on pvx that are worse than what a newb monk could come up with them selves"

maxxfury · Jul 20, 2009, 01:02 PM // 13:02

I'm guessing my bar sucks in nm

Seeing as how Selfless spirit, seed of life and taking SB with PS on the same bar all suck! or that you cant beat a woh hybrid

apparently.

NM bar.
[Assassins Promise][Patient Spirit][Dwaynas Kiss][Protective spirit][Seed of Life][Aegis][Selfless Spirit] with one of [Shield of Absorption][Spirit Bond][Great Dwarf Weapon][Cure Hex][Dismiss Condition]

HM Bar:
[Assassins Promise][Aegis][Selfless Spirit][Reversal of Fortune][Shield of Absorption][Seed Of Life][Divine Boon][Protective Spirit] or[Spirit Bond]

If i was ast to run a HB, id likely run,
[HB][[kiss][patient][prot spirit][aegis][gole][healparty][shield of absorb]
Tho id likley not enjoy it :P

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 01:32 PM // 13:32

123123123123

Crash Override · Jul 20, 2009, 03:10 PM // 15:10

Assassin's Promise on a Monk bar?

/facepalm

maxxfury · Jul 20, 2009, 03:23 PM // 15:23

*sigh..

been able to spam 5e prot spirits, and free small prots and heals all over while keeping up a perma 1 man aegis chain, is of course terribly bad

Also varients are used by some of the best and most respected people around these parts!..Rachtoh's AP boon prot, Chthon's Ap hybrid (basically the bar i posted) and pretty much, as i hear some of the 'best' pve guilds.

Do a little digging around

Or you could just stick to the woh hybrid that is simply inferior to the ER infoozer!

/headdesk is better than a facepalm btw

YunSooJin · Jul 20, 2009, 04:21 PM // 16:21

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

*sigh..

been able to spam 5e prot spirits, and free small prots and heals all over while keeping up a perma 1 man aegis chain, is of course terribly bad

Also varients are used by some of the best and most respected people around these parts!..Rachtoh's AP boon prot, Chthon's Ap hybrid (basically the bar i posted) and pretty much, as i hear some of the 'best' pve guilds.

Do a little digging around

Or you could just stick to the woh hybrid that is simply inferior to the ER infoozer!

/headdesk is better than a facepalm btw

your build sucks.. but i was waiting for someone else to tell you that first

maxxfury · Jul 20, 2009, 04:33 PM // 16:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by YunSooJin

your build sucks.. but i was waiting for someone else to tell you that first

And YOUR the one who complains about bad builds? when you cant see a good build hitting you in the face? :P

/waits for the people who actually have a clue about good bars to come along into the thread

tho for the sake of this thread, tell me EXACTLY why you think the bar sucks :P ty

*sidenotes: some variations of ap monks

http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...php?t=10339147
and
http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/s...0353242&page=5 Chthon's post #83

Yichi · Jul 20, 2009, 05:16 PM // 17:16

I have a vast clue on monk bars, and your build still sucks.

Ensign · Jul 20, 2009, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

A player with a skill-level of X with s sub-par build will still perform worse than a player with a skill-level of X with a superior build.

I disagree with this wholly; there absolutely are instances of high floor, low ceiling skills. They are, in fact, very common. On the flip side, high ceiling skills regularly have a low floor.

Better and more experienced players are going to naturally gravitate more towards low floor, high ceiling skills, because with judicious use they will get much more use out of them than is possible with a low ceiling skill. But a poor player will not; a very poor player will perform much closer to the floor of each skill. When you're playing close to the floor, the best skills are the ones everyone here is making fun of - one dimensional, direct heals. Sure, a strong player is not going to want to use many of those, if any. But a new or weaker player? Those are the skills that let them be minimally functional.

You can make a good argument that it's ridiculous that those players can be successful in the harder areas of the game without progressing to taking advantage of higher ceiling skills. But that's a function of the game being very easy. The fact is most players do not progress significantly, and simple bars that are optimized for weak players become the established norm because of it. Believe it or not, a bad Monk is going to do better on a Healer's Boon bar than on a Prot-heavy bar.

--

Hex and condition removal has become a funny thing for Monks in PvE. Throughout Prophecies and Factions, you would have been crazy to not bring removal (and that is still largely the case today), as conditions and hexes tended to be spot issues that could be dealt with using a Mend and a hex removal or two. But starting in Nightfall, and taken to extremes in EotN, hexes and conditions are largely thrown at you in massive overload proportions or barely at all. Normal removals cannot even hope to make a dent; you need to really dedicate yourself as a cleaner if you want to be effective, and that takes your elite.

If you're being serious about builds you really need to figure out what you want your Monk to be doing, and what you want to distribute elsewhere. Monks can save people, they can push bars up, or they can fight conditions and hexes - you can pick two of three typically, but it's just not possible to do all three in the harder PvE areas. In the absence of an E/Mo to save people or misc skills on other guys to push the bars up overall, I think you need to bite the bullet and cut the removal to make sure you can do those jobs effectively, as spot removals are largely a waste of energy. If you do have that support, though, to let you run RC, Divert, Empathic, or the like, then by all means do so.

Racthoh · Jul 20, 2009, 06:11 PM // 18:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Override

Assassin's Promise on a Monk bar?

Assassin's Promise
Reversal of Fortune
Seed of Life/Release Enchantments
Deny Hexes
Shield of Absorption
Aegis
Divine Spirit
Divine Boon

Provided you have a group that's calling targets so you can just press T -> Assassin's Promise it's a lot of fun and quite usable. The lack of Protective Spirit comes from knowing I'd run that bar in an environment with "Save Yourselves!" so any armor ignoring damage can be handled with Reversal.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paranon

90% of areas don't have hexes or conditions worth removing and 90% of people don't bother calling these things, they just wait for them to run down.

A monk, or any player for that matter, should be able to figure out when someone has a hex on them that is interfering with their ability to do their job. If a warrior is taking consistent packets of damage every time he attacks odds are I can throw them a hex removal and that damage will stop occurring. Assuming a purple arrow was present mind you. A monk should be able to identify the problem without others calling for it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash Override

Wait, so there's no point in removing Empathy or Soothing Images off of your Warriors? What about Spiteful Spirit? I almost never leave without bringing a condition and hex removal when I'm on my monk.

It depends entirely on the group make up and what you're expecting in the area ahead. My general belief when creating a build is to load up the bar with skills that serve a more universal purpose, then tweak one or two skills for certain situations. As an example that bar I posted above I would run in the Fissure of Woe in a physical heavy group. Assassin's Promise allowed me to maintain Seed of Life almost indefiniately, effectively reducing any threat multiple copies of Spiteful Spirit posed to the physicals. Deny Hexes would generally allow me to clean both an Empathy and a Spiteful Spirit off a single physical or Life Transfer and Life Siphon without sacrificing my elite on a skill that can remove multiple hexes. Granted I could take Divert Hexes or simply bring something like Cure Hex and Holy Veil but in areas where hexes aren't as dominate I'd be losing the power of my elite or 1/4th of my skill bar. Simply using Build Wars for most of PvE will allow you to create extremely effective bars for any given situation provided you're aware of what obstacles you'll face.

There are exceptions mind you. If I'm playing with a character who is using "Save Yourselves!" for example I would ensure that my bar is capable of keeping that player alive and clean at all times. There's no sense bringing along someone sporting powerful utility skills when they can't use them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by IronSheik

But hexes and conditions in PvE aren't worth removing, they're reapplied nearly instantly, daze doesn't occur enuff to bring a remover over. And any blind is either spam or can be interrupted easily.

Generally you'll need to research the area and if need be Build Wars against the conditions/hexes. Eventually it does get to the point where you will need mass removals as skills with universal usage won't perform well enough. Concerning Dazed it's not so much that it's rare it's more that if it's applied to say, a monk, they probably won't be able to get it off themselves anyway. Song of Purification is probably one of the best ways to deal with Dazed given the way it functions and how Paragons can be very flexible with their elite. It's also a very handle skill for deal with the spamming nature of Blind applications.

upier · Jul 20, 2009, 06:17 PM // 18:17

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

I disagree with this wholly; there absolutely are instances of high floor, low ceiling skills. They are, in fact, very common. On the flip side, high ceiling skills regularly have a low floor.

Better and more experienced players are going to naturally gravitate more towards low floor, high ceiling skills, because with judicious use they will get much more use out of them than is possible with a low ceiling skill. But a poor player will not; a very poor player will perform much closer to the floor of each skill. When you're playing close to the floor, the best skills are the ones everyone here is making fun of - one dimensional, direct heals. Sure, a strong player is not going to want to use many of those, if any. But a new or weaker player? Those are the skills that let them be minimally functional.

You can make a good argument that it's ridiculous that those players can be successful in the harder areas of the game without progressing to taking advantage of higher ceiling skills. But that's a function of the game being very easy. The fact is most players do not progress significantly, and simple bars that are optimized for weak players become the established norm because of it. Believe it or not, a bad Monk is going to do better on a Healer's Boon bar than on a Prot-heavy bar.

I actually though of a good player where the "skill level of X" is used to showcase that the only difference between players are the skills used. (I guess I should have made that clearer. I just use this term since many players like to use the argument that a bad player on a hybrid compared to good player on a healer somehow makes the healer build better.)
Because let's be honest - bad players don't matter. It doesn't matter which build a bad player runs, because at the end of the day - that player is still bad.

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 07:12 PM // 19:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by maxxfury

I'm guessing my bar sucks

Seeing as how Selfless spirit, seed of life and taking SB with PS on the same bar all suck! or that you cant beat a woh hybrid

apparently.

[Assassins Promise][Patient Spirit][Dwaynas Kiss][Protective spirit][Seed of Life][Aegis][Selfless Spirit] with one of [Shield of Absorption][Spirit Bond][Great Dwarf Weapon][Cure Hex][Dismiss Condition]

I think that guessing your bar sucks would be a fair estimation yes.
You have made the mistake that so many people make. you have a bar full of skills that every body uses, but some of the skills just don't synergise.

Assasin's Promise is used in spike builds (discord, manlyway)
Patient spirit and dwayna's kiss are both very viable and very powerful heals
Protective Spirit, Seed of Life and Aegis are all viable protection skills
Selfless Spirit is a viable energy management spell.

However, assassin's promise just doesn't go with those skills. apart from selfless spirit, none of the skills there have particularly long recharge times, and with selfless spirit you shouldn't have any energy problems.

If you swapped out Assassin's promise for another elite, it would be a nice hybrid build, but i just can't see that AP is necessary.

Ensign · Jul 20, 2009, 07:44 PM // 19:44

Quote:

Originally Posted by upier

Because let's be honest - bad players don't matter. It doesn't matter which build a bad player runs, because at the end of the day - that player is still bad.

Bad players absolutely do matter. Your average player really isn't all that good, and most players have a game experience similar to said average player. Purely from a number's perspective, what the better players run and the skills they use to take advantage of their experience doesn't matter all that much because to a majority of players that advice is not useful or otherwise irrelevant to their play experience.

Most of the game needs to be designed to be accessible to average players running average bars with average teammates and average strategy and tactics. Seeing that most players are playing average bars that don't have the capacity for significantly above average play should not be surprising - the player is average! Most players have not been playing a character steadily for the last 4 years. I would wager that most of the players you encounter in PvE have not been playing the game all that long, or play very casually. They're discovering the game organically the same way people did originally, and handing those players a bar that's been optimized over the years for use with tactics that they have never been exposed to is not going to end well; they'd probably conclude that you don't know what you're talking about because their heal bar is so much more effective for the level they are at!

I think there's a huge disconnect with reality over where players are at; there's a wide spectrum of ability, talent, and experience in the player base, and it's destructive to pretend that everyone's the same or that advice is one-size fits all. Yes, a lot of players are bad - so if you want to be constructive, figure out the advice to give them to be more successful at their level, and what they'll need to do to get better. Calling them names for not having the experience or developing aptitude with powerful skills, or dismissing them as irrelevant because they haven't, is sophomoric ego-stroking that does nothing to move the level of the game forward.

Improvavel · Jul 20, 2009, 07:50 PM // 19:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ensign

Hex and condition removal has become a funny thing for Monks in PvE. Throughout Prophecies and Factions, you would have been crazy to not bring removal (and that is still largely the case today), as conditions and hexes tended to be spot issues that could be dealt with using a Mend and a hex removal or two. But starting in Nightfall, and taken to extremes in EotN, hexes and conditions are largely thrown at you in massive overload proportions or barely at all. Normal removals cannot even hope to make a dent; you need to really dedicate yourself as a cleaner if you want to be effective, and that takes your elite.

If you're being serious about builds you really need to figure out what you want your Monk to be doing, and what you want to distribute elsewhere. Monks can save people, they can push bars up, or they can fight conditions and hexes - you can pick two of three typically, but it's just not possible to do all three in the harder PvE areas. In the absence of an E/Mo to save people or misc skills on other guys to push the bars up overall, I think you need to bite the bullet and cut the removal to make sure you can do those jobs effectively, as spot removals are largely a waste of energy. If you do have that support, though, to let you run RC, Divert, Empathic, or the like, then by all means do so.

Or you can get some skills like empathic removal, Foul Feast, Expel hexes, hex eater signet, convert hexes, etc, on the mid line.

Purge signet might not be a bad option either. And with Foul Feast, dropping dismiss and bringing 2 copies of cure hex and spotless mind might be enough.

Not bothering with hex/condition removal in PvE, on the other hand, as some people keep defending, is asking for a loss if you run a heavy physical team.

I Angra I · Jul 20, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

I'm guessing the OP is talking about pve, though I'm not entirely sure.

A lot of the bars that you listed did look pretty bad, you're right. I think that's just from players being stupid.

Pure superpowered healing in pve isn't actually that bad though, you have to consider how the rest of the game is now. There's a ton of party-wide damage reducing things like Save Yourselves and that one paragon pve skill that reduces damage that I forget the name of. There's also N/Rt heroes and N/Mo MM's with prot spirit/aegis etc. in extra slots who use weapon spells and big prots amazingly efficiently for reducing damage. There's honestly no need to bring extra spot protting on a monk's bar when you have all that stuff. Sometimes not even a need for super powered healing, either (RoJ is rly good) but it depends.

Honestly the only prots a monk needs to bring in pve anymore is prot spirit, aegis, and SoA. And like I said, a lot of N/Rt and N/Mo heroes have various weapons and prots on their bar that they use well, so they aren't even needed on a human monk.

MagmaRed · Jul 20, 2009, 08:07 PM // 20:07

Hybrids are great, but if you are on a team with 2 Monks, coordinating those hybrids is not always easy. If both took Protective Spirit and Spirit Bond, which one will use it on the target that needs it? Both usually, wasting energy and allowing another person to miss out on the Prots.

Myself, in PvE, I always take 2 Monks, 1 pure Heal and 1 pure Protect. So an HB build with nothing but red bar pushing would work if it was paired up with a Prot Monk to reduce the damage the team was taking. However, I find UA to be batter than HB. Instant rez is amazing when it gives you full health and energy, and the +healing benefit is better than HB unless running it on a hybrid with Heal, Prot, and Divine attributes used.

It isn't the Monk bars, it is the Monk players. Many don't understand how the skills work (as demonstrated by the discussion in this topic) and many don't know how aggro in PvE works or understand things as basic as energy management. And just because the game is 4 years old doesn't mean the players have played for 4 years. Look around the forums and in game and you will see NEW people are just starting for the first time still.

paranon · Jul 20, 2009, 08:10 PM // 20:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by I Angra I

I'm guessing the OP is talking about pve, though I'm not entirely sure.

A lot of the bars that you listed did look pretty bad, you're right. I think that's just from players being stupid.

Pure superpowered healing in pve isn't actually that bad though, you have to consider how the rest of the game is now. There's a ton of party-wide damage reducing things like Save Yourselves and that one paragon pve skill that reduces damage that I forget the name of. There's also N/Rt heroes and N/Mo MM's with prot spirit/aegis etc. in extra slots who use weapon spells and big prots amazingly efficiently for reducing damage. There's honestly no need to bring extra spot protting on a monk's bar when you have all that stuff. Sometimes not even a need for super powered healing, either (RoJ is rly good) but it depends.

Honestly the only prots a monk needs to bring in pve anymore is prot spirit, aegis, and SoA. And like I said, a lot of N/Rt and N/Mo heroes have various weapons and prots on their bar that they use well, so they aren't even needed on a human monk.

What you say about not "needing" skills is interesting. As a monk i like to challenge myself to make mine, and my hero's builds the most efficient i can. So i don't look at a hero MM bar with prot spirit on it and think:
"oh ok, don't need to take PS then, MM has it"

I think:
"well, i can definitely use prot spirit better than that hero, so I'M going to take it, what should i take instead on the hero?"

you base most of your opinion on the assumption that people take the sabway/discord builds and think "what can i take to help it" and don't take their own builds and think "what don't the heros need when i am playing this bar?"

for instance. sabway was made to be played by a damage profession, and designed to be used in conjunction with one or two healer henchmen. As a monk, i usually replace the N/Rt healer with something else (nuker, tank, BHA, etc) because i am filling the role.

I understand what you're saying, but in my case, hero's builds are decided AFTER my build.